Watch This Space – June 2025 Episode Transcription
Audio links for original podcast:
· Click Here, to listen on the dedicated Watch This Space website
· Click Here, to listen on the Podcast section of my J Arnold & Associates website
Transcription: Hiatus Time for Watch This Space
Jon Arnold
Welcome to Watch This Space, the podcast about future of work. Every month, we bring you insider perspectives on how digital transformation, emerging tech, and generational change are shaping the future of work. We are two analog guys finding the groove for all of this in today's digital world. I'm Jon Arnold, and these trends are my focus as an independent tech analyst in my company, J Arnold and Associates.
Chris Fine
And I'm Chris Fine. I'm an independent consultant and strategist specializing in workplace technology, IoT, and security. My company is Integrative Technologies. Hi, everybody. Hi, Jon. Good to be back for another month. Busy month, right?
Jon Arnold
Busy month. And yeah, not quite the ides of March, but we do have changes afoot, and we're going to talk about that in a moment. But good to be back on track here with another episode. And for those who are late to the game, so to speak, we are well into our eighth season here. And Chris, we'll use that as a bit of a segue to what's coming next. And I'll just hand the mic over to you for a moment and then we'll just get an update going here for the audience.
Chris Fine
Well, then I would say that before we get to where we've been on this last month that it's a pretty special episode, right? And we've got some things to say about where we've been and where we're going. But, you know, first kind of the mechanics of what we're thinking about the podcast, right? And some changes that are coming.
Update on Our Hiatus for Watch This Space
Jon Arnold
Yeah, that's a good warm up for our news here today, folks. So, we have been doing the podcast, I think since 2018. Yes. Okay, so I know we're somewhere in the 80s for a number of episodes, and I didn't get a chance to review all of them, but we do have all of them. And anyone who is an interested listener can access all of them. That's an easy one if you really want to go into the archives.
But yeah, the main news is that we are going to put, Watch This Space on hiatus for a few months. And I'll weigh in with my take first, Chris, and I know you'll have a few things to say on that. So, we've had a format, folks, that we've kind of stuck with for quite a while. And we certainly, we love doing it. And it's fun. And we think it's a pretty unique perspective that we bring to the audience and the broader tech space, mainly because, as our kind of tagline says, Chris and I are from the analog generation, and I'm sure that's pretty obvious to anyone who knows what we do.
We think that's a pretty important perspective to bring to looking at the evolution of technology in the future of workspace, particularly because we are now in the digital age, and digital natives who have only known that world.
There's a lot of things that may not cross your mind that are kind of underlying how and why we do things the way we do them today, and how what looks to be so easy and valuable today is really, you know, the end result from a lot of hard work and ingenuity and engineering genius that went into making these things work from the analog world to get them into the digital world. No easy feat, but we're here.
But this stuff didn't just come out of nowhere. So, we are kind of maybe keepers of the flame a little bit, Chris, about what came before it and why some of the sensibilities to that are still relevant. So, for the time being, I'll give it to you in a sec, Chris. Yeah, we're going to be putting a pause on the podcast. We just want to reevaluate some of our priorities and direction with the podcast.
And I, in particular, will be open to new avenues and ideas for how we do the podcast going forward. So, this will be a bit of a work in progress. But we're going to put a hold on it for a couple of months to kind of reposition, maybe rebrand how the podcast goes forward. So that's the news item for now. And we certainly will continue to enjoy following these spaces. And we hope you stay with us. With that, Chris, I know you'll have some things to say too.
Chris Fine
Well, thanks, Jon. I want to start by saying how grateful we are to our faithful audience who listens to these, whatever your numbers may be. We really appreciate it. We appreciate the feedback that we get, and we appreciate that people might actually care what we have to say. So, thank you for that. And we are aware of it and always grateful for the listenership and input that we get. So, I'll start with that. I think when I was looking back to the beginning, it's been an evolution for us. I'm usually the one in charge of what we would call post-production.
I remember starting with just the crudest kind of use of YouTube basically to record a video and then strip the audio out of it, and that was funny. To this day, we still use video tools and we just keep the cameras off, which is, you know, maybe something to reconsider, Jon, you know, on the return of at some point, especially if you have guests, 'cause, you know, now most podcasts, podcasts and the world of podcasting has evolved to where the production values and production techniques are different. They've evolved a lot, and so I think, you know, that's something Jon is sort of the master producer of this. You got to think about, we have to think about.
And I think also we've always had an extremely loose format where we're just talking exactly whatever comes up. You know, it may or may not be more structured, it may or may not make sense to do that. We also have never really had guests and that's something we've talked about a lot. I think that's another thing to throw in the mix, but those are my preliminary thoughts, but I would just say again that my number one is just gratefulness to people who've supported us for these eight seasons, right?
Jon Arnold
Yeah, totally agree. And yeah, I would have been wanting to say the same as well to thank our listeners. It's funny to call them listeners. We don't call them customers. We don't call them patients. We call them listeners because it's an audio format. But I suppose if we had video, we'd call them viewers. But anyway, regardless of people who have been following us, and it means a lot, of course, because we wouldn't be doing this without that.
A chemistry that we've evolved over the years. And it's just because folks, you know, Chris and I have known each other for a very long time. This is a very kind of easy dialogue for us to have month after month, because we look at the world in very similar ways, but we do different things. And we think there's some value to that. But as always, it's the listeners that matter the most. So, another big thank you for me as well for all the listens and downloads out there.
And we hope that continues, because the good thing with these podcasts is, yeah, they don't just disappear into thin air. There's always a way to find them and archive them. And as far as I know, Chris, the content is searchable. So, there are ways to kind of maybe look for some, if we really want to put AI to work, to pull out our five greatest quotes or something, you'd need AI to go through everything to find that. But it's there. We may be stopping for a while, but the podcast will continue to live and there will be another iteration a few months down the road.
Chris Fine
Yeah. I also think we want to take some time to reconsider what the big themes are. And we're going to talk a little bit about that later, about where we think some things have matured and then what is ahead for the future and should we change our mixture a little bit too, is part of a rebranding, right? To think about exactly where the tech trends are going. Because I think, you know, when we started and we've been very satisfied about this, that, you know, we really had correctly pegged even before the pandemic. what things were going to happen. I think we've been correct about a number of them, not always, but generally. And, you know, right now we're into another cycle, if you will, maybe another stage or another phase at least of some of this stuff that we've talked about. And so I think that's worth considering too.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, totally agree. And as I kind of like to say, tongue in cheek, we've been talking about the future of work for so long. I mean, it's no longer the future. Yeah, so every year we have, the conference I've been doing with TMC for all these years. And, I think in our gut, Chris, we feel that we have kind of done this topic now. I think we've done enough exploring about, you know, focusing on the concept of work as the future. And I think now the future, I think there's a bigger conversation or maybe a different conversation we have to look at because AI is just so transformative about everything. And I think it's going to be very difficult as AI kind of, I wouldn't say take this over, but becomes just so, you know, embedded in everything we do, I think it's going to be really difficult to kind of have this like silo approach to thinking about everything.
Like, we put work in this bucket, we put our home life in this bucket, we put our family life in this bucket, you put your, you know, your teamwork in one bucket and your individual work in another bucket, and everything is now connected. And, you know, so to just think about, well, what's the workplace going to look like? Well, there's so many things attached to that, that, yeah, I think there's a different conversation we need to be kind of or themes we need to be exploring. So, I think that's another reason why we want to re, you know, just reconsider and, you know, just maybe refresh the focus.
Chris Fine
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we're the bleeding edge of anything, but I think we've been relatively leading edge. And so, to take a comparison, right, if you, maybe we weren't some of the people that were thinking about the internet in 1980. maybe we've kind of come into this future of work stuff when we started in 2018. Maybe some internet thinkers in 1994, 1995. And whether you're right or wrong, if you'd sat at that moment and predicted what was going to happen with the internet, if it happened, then it's happened, right?
And so, then you have to think about the next thing. It doesn't do much good to sit and say, I was right about this with the internet. Look what it turned into, right? You can report on what it is, but that's not really the future of, as you say, right? Yeah. Right, so like when you think about your world of, for example, contact center technology, where would you during a hiatus, and I don't mean to answer this question, but it's like, where was the next thing for that? Where's the ball going, right?
Because you have talked many times about the growth of AI assistance and of unified communications and many other things. agents, bots, all of that, that's transformed that world that you cover as an analyst. But then what's really next, right? And so, if you're going to be talking about the future of anything, you sort of have to do a reset occasionally and say, okay, what am I at right now? What's the starting point right now? Because I successfully predicted a good bit of this stuff. Not that it took any genius to do it, but nevertheless, you're right. And, you know, whatever intellect and connection we had to be able to do that, great.
But now we have to rethink. There's so much macro change going on in the world, economics, politics, but certainly change. that maybe it's just time to do a rethink and put a pin in a different place and start from there. You know what I mean?
Jon Arnold
Yeah, and everything builds on what's before it. So, we, because we've been doing this monthly for so long. There is kind of a, we've kind of not kind of like a hardened view, but we certainly have a well-informed view of how things are evolving and the foundational knowledge that comes from just, thinking and talking about these things on a regular basis puts you in a position to say, yeah, well, where is, where are we going to put that new pin? And then from there, you'd be surprised just how applicable a lot of the stuff you've been talking about comes into play.
And we've seen that because we've been through many technology cycles in our 30 plus years of doing this stuff that you kind of know, you kind of can see, human nature is what it is. And Unless AI reprograms everything about our way of thinking, which we're not there yet, but it could be, then there's certain things I think are fairly easy to anticipate in terms of how we're going to respond. And that's what makes it interesting, because each time it's a different type of technology, but human nature is what it is. And it responds to stimuli in a fairly predictable way.
Chris Fine
Well, I think that's sort of the main headlines, right, of the transition and the pause, the hiatus. Right, Jon? I mean, I think, since this is Watch This Space, we should maybe spend a few minutes talking about what we've been doing. And then I think we want to have a broader discussion at the last part of the broadcast about what did we think were some of the top things that happened in the past multi-season, season one of this podcast, and then what we think might be ahead for the next phase.
Recapping Recent Industry Events for Jon Arnold
Jon Arnold
Yep, that's a good, that's a good placeholder for the transition here. We'll talk about the future of this podcast. And now let's talk about what we did last month.
Chris Fine
Yeah, so go ahead. What's, you're usually the one who's been in a zillion places. So, let's hear the recap.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, well, for me May was a quiet month in terms of events. I've been kind of continuously going places through probably early February, and probably starting with Future Work Expo, actually. It's been not every week, but almost every week there has been something I've been going to through pretty much all of February, March, and April. This month has been a quiet, you know, the month of May for me has been quiet in terms of travel, but I'm setting the seeds for June, which I have three events, or maybe four events.
Anyway, so there's more stuff coming. A lot of this month for me, Chris, has been, it actually has been more about writing and doing video stuff as opposed to going away to events. But what I can say is from the way the month has unfolded, a lot of the vendors are, they're very active in terms of trying to keep their, brand front and center. And why I'm saying that is whether I'm going to events or not, I mean, there are several vendors that I still follow closely on a daily basis. And this speaks, I think, to how pervasive technology is becoming in our lives, that all of the vendors that are almost all the vendors are being very conscious currently about keeping a high profile with their brand. and using the tools, especially social media, to amplify that and hold your attention as long as they possibly can. And that's fine.
That's typical business and that's typical marketing that you've just got to do that. But it speaks to a marketplace that A, is crowded, which is fine. I mean, health competition is a sign of a healthy market for sure. And yes, a lot of the technology that is in our world is, you know, largely unregulated, right, Chris? I think there aren't too many constraints on what's happening with these technologies. And so, when big news happens, it gets a lot of attention.
And companies like, for example, like Nvidia are just setting the bar so high now for the impact of these technologies. And the reason I'm mentioning that is because I may not be going to a lot of events this month, but I'm certainly following the news. And when companies like that and Microsoft and Amazon make announcements and releases that It kind of like you can't ignore it and you have to respond somehow because the pace, and this is the underlying message for all of this, is just the pace of change, especially with AI driving things now, is so fast that you can't stand still.
So, the vendors have to stay kind of top of mind with you as much as possible because you need to know that they are staying on top of things. Because if you don't hear from them, then you may not think that they're staying on top of things. And if they don't, others will. This is kind of the state of the market. It's kind of like a heightened form of competition where you can't afford to make mistakes, which is why this is so difficult because it's just as risky for the buyers as it is for the vendors because these technologies are so transformative and they're happening so quickly and you can't afford to miss the boat, but you can't afford to make mistakes either. Everyone is struggling with what's kind of the right level to be playing this kind of, I wouldn't call it a game, but to kind of, is there any kind of status quo anymore? And I'm having a hard time seeing that where there is one.
Chris Fine
That's an interesting point, Jon. I mean, because if I interpret what you say correctly, essentially, the media strategy is the product strategy, because... there's so much noise out there and the channels are so fragmented. They're not fragmented and it's almost a monopoly or duopoly and then there's two giants competing with each other or three or four. It's all about who gets the word out right and who connects with people because the technologies aren't always ridiculously differentiated.
You pick almost any category of anything you want to do with anything in technology and you're going to find as you would in many other industries, I suppose, a lot of competitors. And so it's a question of how you get to the market and how you sell. And in today's environment, to your point, it's all about how much noise you make and how successful your branding is, I think, right?
Jon Arnold
Yeah, I'd hesitate to use the word noise, although there is truth to that.
Chris Fine
Well, let's say music then.
Jon Arnold
Music, okay.
Chris Fine
Or information emission, use of social media, all the channels, you know, you're surrounded by a lot of noise, I guess, right?
Jon Arnold
Yeah, and I guess, yeah, the wheat from the chaff thing is, you know, we can only process so much information. And frankly, a lot of what we need to do is be better educated about these things and understanding these things. And that's not so much what the vendors are really focusing on. Like you say, it's all about sales and customer acquisition. So it's like, where do you, how do you make informed decisions now?
And with the stuff changing so fast, it's like, okay, well, What's your kind of foundation? What's your ground zero for knowing or true north, where you feel you're going to make the right decisions? And I hate to say it, but increasingly, AI is going to drive those decisions because AI is the only set of tools that can actually process all of this stuff that humans just have a limit for how much they can absorb. And that's a darker conversation, I know.
Chris Fine
Well, let's hold that thought, because I think we're going to talk about AI in a bit. But I guess, so was that your where have I been update?
Jon Arnold
That's, yeah, that's about it. So, the short answer is nowhere. I've been here most of the time, but, you know, so I'm working virtually, but I'm still seeing a lot of stuff. And next month will be interesting, though. I will say as a preview for next month, I got three events I'm going to be at is Global Relay. This will be my first analyst event for them. And that's going to be in New York. That's where I'm going to see you.
Chris Fine
Yes.
Jon Arnold
And the week after that, I'm going to Infobip, which is a very interesting company. They're in Croatia. And they are one of the leading players in the, what we call the CPaaS space, programmable communications. A lot of it's about messaging and RCS and very interesting stuff. And because they're non, US-based, they're not as well known or understood. And it doesn't help to have a name that doesn't really say very much, but Infobip is the name. So, I'm also attending their analyst event in Croatia, which will be pretty exciting. I've never been to that part of the world. So, I'm pretty keen to go to that.
Then in mid-June, I'm going to be at the NiCE Interactions event, which is their big customer event. And the customer events are where the vendors put their big money to really put on a show and impress their prospects and customers and channel partners and everybody else about how good a job they're doing. And in NiCE’s case, actually, it's for real because they just had some really strong quarterly earnings. And I wrote some analysis about that recently. So, they have a lot to celebrate. They're really executing well. I'll have a busy June, but we'll go quiet after this month, so you won't hear from us about the event for a while, at least on the podcast. You'll have to follow my blog.
Recapping Recent Industry Events for Chris Fine
Chris Fine
Yeah, you'll have to follow your voluminous writing on all of this, right? Well, I guess on my side, I really want to talk about just one thing and not take a lot of time on it. But I remember being quite intrigued when you talked about Zoho, which is as we recall, as this big Indian software company. It's actually not that well known here and right now, but I think that's going to change. Very closely held private company that makes enterprise software, and they make really a gigantic array of different enterprise software applications. Anything from the world of SAP to the world of Microsoft Office 365 and all in between, you know, Salesforce, ServiceNow, you know, all of these domains, Zoho was in with some form or another.
And so, I went to Zoholics, which I found, which is their user conference in the United States. It was in Houston. And I really was intrigued with them. They're an interesting company. And one of the areas they're going into, which brings me into the game, is intelligent buildings, smart workplace, IoT. They're already quite engaged with that in the manufacturing and industrial spheres. They have a large IoT project at the biggest, apparently the largest maker of wheels for vehicles in the world, which is in India.
And a number of other customers where they're connected to sensors and they're connected to their software and All the stuff you and I have talked about where I spend a lot of time trying to make happen with an ecosystem about connecting to the physical environment and controlling it based on input from sensors, and then taking that data and passing it to more traditional enterprise data analytics and process applications so that you can add that dimension to the way and enterprise functions. And so, I think this is a watch this space.
I mean, Zoho is a watch this space in general. They seem to have quite a loyal customer base. And at this point, I would say they're not necessarily Fortune 50 companies, although they probably have one or two, but I think they're an up and comer and their approach is generally quite innovative. They chase markets when they find them. They'll add a module very easily. They have very, very large software development resource and people who work hard. And so, it was just very interesting to get to know them better. That was kind of the highlight of my month.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, and I'll just say ditto to that. Like you say, it's not often you and I get to attend conferences from the same vendors. So, I'm glad to hear your take is pretty similar to how I've talked about than before. And so, it's not just me. It's a very different kind of company doing things that everybody uses in the workplace for sure. And if you just look at their logo, I mean, you'd say, oh, aren't they? look like a Google copycat because they have the same kind of color scheme.
Chris Fine
Interlocking shapes.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, in the logo, you say, oh, aren't they just ripping off Google? Well, no, but you could probably go up and down the line of every application Google has. You know, they have pretty much all of that and Microsoft as well. And so, yeah, but there's a, it's just a validation that there's a, like you talked earlier, Chris, about, you know, maybe a duopoly or hegemony of just a handful of companies, and that's always been true in tech, but it's just great to see that there is someone else out there that's an alternative to the big giants that dominate these spaces. And it's obviously, they've found... a very healthy market for this. And because if the functionality is there, then the value is much better because it's a lot less expensive. So, they know the formula in this SaaS model business, right? They've done it very, very well.
Chris Fine
And their barrier to entry is low too, which is interesting. It's very easy to become a customer. Very easy to sign up, doesn't cost a lot of money. And it's very easy to add on things as you need them, especially if you're sort of a medium-sized business. You know, you want to automate your accounts payable, but you're using them for, you know, service tickets right now. It's easy to add it.
The other thing I just said, and then we'll move on, but I just wanted to mention, I think I've watched this space with Zoho is AI because from the top down, they're investing in trying to embed that in all of what they make because they see that as being the unifying factor across all the different functions that they serve. And I actually think that's one of that type of application where you unify across different dimensions and spheres of data and functionality is one of the biggest promises of AI.
You would certainly say that a Google and Microsoft and everybody's investing in that too. I just think that like everything, Zoho has their own flavor on things. And it's going to be interesting to see what they come up with over the next 12 months or whatever and what they have now with the unified AI and the ability to follow and coordinate across all the different modules that they make. And that they have committed to doing.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, and executed on. Their roadmap is full of a lot of promising things for what's coming, but they've also, when I've seen the roadmap presentations, it's, they're very clear on the things that they've brought to market. already and then the things that are coming to market, which all vendors do. But I don't get the sense that they're a company that has really messes up on their schedule. I think they're pretty good about keeping to market for bringing stuff out when they say they're going to bring it out. And like you say, they have a lot of resources on these things.
So, they run the business, I think, very well. And the culture there is really it's very strong. And it's, like you say, a lot of people have been there for a very long time. I've certainly seen that too. And it's also interesting to see how they've attracted a lot of people from other companies to be there. It's not entirely homegrown, but also shows that some people kind of have hit a wall with some of the larger tech companies that they have more opportunity at Zoho because they're, they kind of be a little more hands on with the innovation.
Chris Fine
Yeah, it's going to be interesting to follow them and potentially to work with them. So that's my highlight of the month. But I think given that where we are in time, we really should think about how do we put a conclusion on this chapter of us doing this. Like, and I think what we talked about was we were going to talk about a couple of things that have struck us the most, or impacted things, we've seen them the most over the years that we've done this. And then I think we're going to talk about, where's the junction between that and moving forward, right?
Impact of the Pandemic on the Future of Work and Technology Evolution
Jon Arnold
Yeah, we've stayed true to the name of the podcast, the Watch This Space, you know, idea. And I think it's held up for us pretty well. We have been, when we say watch this space, it's mostly about future of work, but because so many other things are connected to it, really is a broader, broader theme. But yeah, so I'll I don't mind kind of starting with probably the most ahead thing we've all had to live through, which was the pandemic. You know, when we talk about future of work, I don't think there's been any bigger kind of jolt to the status quo I mentioned earlier, which is now gone than hybrid work. Right. I mean, no one asked for this, no one was planning for it, and no one was ready when these changes were forced, right?
And I can't remember living through something that was that like external forces created so much disruption that had nothing to do with technology. And that's what I mean about status quo. Like when you kind of know where all the levers are that affect change, you could plan for that. But you mentioned earlier, Chris, you go back to the First World War when the influenza epidemic was also around. No one can plan for that. And when it hits, it hits everybody. And that's what happened here. So, when we talk about the future of work, whatever future we were thinking about completely went out the window with the pandemic and that forced a reset for everything. And we're still trying to figure it out, right?
Chris Fine
I mean, I think it was an intensely traumatic event that happens, I would say on average, once a century or so, hopefully not more, something like that. But I think to your point, I don't think the dust has settled, to be honest. And I think we're seeing a lot of things on all dimensions of the world right now that are either a result of, or we're in the process and then we're shaken up by the pandemic. So, my view is that the pandemic was essentially, with respect to work and style of work, was a massive catalyst and a forcing of something that was already potentially in the works but was never going to happen without some kind of a massive disruption.
It would have taken a lot longer, I think, to get where we are with hybrid work. I'd been an advocate for it for a very long time. Some others have too. But I think that there was just a very, very entrenched level of resistance. And it also took the technology a certain amount of time to develop to where you really could do it. And so, I think that hybrid work is still rippling through the ecosystem of office space and real estate and technology and work content and many other things.
But in terms of disruption of how work is done, I think the pandemic induced changes and the technology underneath, the only parallel I could think of in my life really was the transition from primarily industrial to information-based work and the economy. And that's the only thing I think that was on a par, when computers really dropped in cost in the 70s and 80s and how it just became where most people, not all people, as we always say, we always try to make this point, that there's still many who are not in that sphere. But if you look at the majority of the workforce, people end up being information-oriented work.
And I think hybrid work is as big as a shift, because it was ultimately the embrace of information-oriented work, but it had so many other aspects as well. It was like, I'm working on information all day, so I don't have to be in a very specific place, but very specific facilities. But yes, I think during our tenure of this broadcast so far, it's really been hybrid work, and the pandemic would be factor #1.
Jon Arnold
Yeah, and just to connect the dots on that, Chris, from industrial to informational, again, it's one of the core motifs that we have here is this idea of analog to digital. And that's exactly what that's about. When you move away from mechanical, you know, production-oriented, manufacturing-oriented kind of environments where most work was around supporting those things and everything that went on in the office was done on mechanical devices like typewriters, whatever. It wasn't about information per se. Whereas now, as you say, information is very mobile, it's very nomadic, and you can do it anywhere.
All of a sudden, the need to be in a physical space to do your quote unquote work now changes. So again, that's because we have gone from this shift from analog to digital technologies that have given rise to the idea that data is the thing now. And I think it's easy to you could argue today that every business is a data business because that's where the value comes from to do just about everything.
Chris Fine
Yeah, I agree. But what has happened though, is I really feel like there's starting to be some stability around hybrid work. There's still more to come. You know, if you listen to smart people in the industry like Leesman or Unwork, you know, they still see, or the major real estate players, you know, CBRE, JLL, Cushman and Wakefield, you read the research. There's still more to come in terms of shifting of how space is deployed and how space is used. and what facilities are configured in workplace. But the way seems a little bit clearer.
There are still some companies that are going to try to force people back to work five days a week and they may succeed. They think they will, because in a current economic downturn, companies always think they have all the power - and sometimes they do - and they're going to try to, they get less sunshine and roses and more show up or lose your job, you know. But having said that, I just think for the point of view of productivity, there's probably a happy medium of, you know, whatever it is, the three days a week or whatever the right thing is in any given enterprise. And that's where we've gotten to and I don't see radical changes coming. to that.
I think remote work as a whole it has consistently declined and it's probably the rate of that decline is lessening but you know there's relatively few jobs that are 100% remote and remote work was great to be able to try it and for a lot of people and you know then to reach some compromise with it but 100% remote work I think is not always healthy for people in many kinds of positions and You know, I speak as somebody who does almost 100% remote work. I can see the big advantages, but some disadvantages of it too. And that's where I think it's drawing to kind of an equilibrium, don't you think?
Jon Arnold
Yeah. Yeah. There's just say we and if you want to take AI to a very long conclusion where it automates virtually every element of work, then it really doesn't matter where you are anymore. But again, as long as work is a human endeavor, it's not fully automated, then, you know, we are still humans. We're not machines. And I think that's easy to get lost in the equation about you know, why the environment of the workplace is so important, whether it is a home-based environment, but also for, you know, these third spaces like WeWork.
That's an important part of the equation because it's that kind of happy medium between being stuck in a, you know, cramped apartment and working in a sterile, you know, noisy office environment. So there, as you say, we have evolved into some kind of equilibrium of what mix of spaces will work best.
I also just want to mention, on the technology front, I've long said that the pandemic was the best thing that could have happened for UCaaS and UC, because it was exactly the technology we needed at the time to enable remote work. If we didn't have these tools, like let's say, Chris, the pandemic happened 5 or 10 years earlier, businesses would be paralyzed. They wouldn't be able to function nowhere near full capacity. They just couldn't. So that you talk about a disruption. I think we're just very fortunate in a way that we had enough maturity in those technologies that we could function working remotely or some kind of a mix. And if anything, it validated the value of the cloud, right?
Because again, many companies, were and still do sit on the fence about using the cloud, all kinds of reasons to not use it. But I think the pandemic put the cloud through tests that, you know, I think it pretty much passed everyone. I don't think, you know, if you're looking for reasons not to use the cloud technology wise in terms of performance, I think the pandemic forced adoption for the cloud and it found that it actually did hold up well and did make remote work possible and kept people collaborating and kept businesses moving. And so, for the most part, I think we have to give a nod to the technology that it was in the right place at the right time, so to speak, for the pandemic, because where would we have been if we didn't, as I said, if the pandemic came 10 years sooner?
Chris Fine
Oh, completely, completely. In fact, I was thinking the other day, wearing my various hats over the years, I was involved in a number of jobs where, and pretty much any time you're in IT, you have to think about disaster recovery and business continuity planning. And I tended to be on sort of an innovative edge of communications and various technologies we might deploy for various things. And I just was thinking about the difference between a discussion about that topic, pre-internet, internet, but no, you know, voice over IP. Internet with voice over IP, but no multimedia and collaboration and sharing, and then versus today.
I agree with you 100%. I'm just thinking about how that evolved. For example, the discussion that we had to have on the back of the Northridge earthquake in California during the 90s. If you're a financial organization or some other company that depends a lot on communications, what happened, what we needed to do with that. And then what needed to be done after 9-11, and then what needed to be done after Hurricane Sandy in New York, and then versus how technology addressed the pandemic, and... boy, you really can see, right? We did benefit from the fact that the right technology was in place at the crucial moment, right?
Why There’s No Status Quo Yet with AI
Jon Arnold
For sure, for sure. And yeah, yes, it has benefited companies like Microsoft tremendously. So, you could argue that they probably had more upside to this than other companies. But no, it did raise the tide, I think, for all boats, made this industry very viable. And, you know, you come away with a deep appreciation of, when the technology works well, it can be really great. And there's no doubt about it.
But I think that will also maybe push us to the flip side of this, Chris, about the watch this space for what we should be thinking about. After this episode today, where are the themes that we should be looking at? And you can't get away from AI being the thing that you have to be watching right now. And it just touches everything in such profound ways. We're so far away, I think, from understanding what it all means. And of course, there's opportunity in that. But as I said earlier, where is the status quo right now? And I don't think there really is one.
Chris Fine
Status quo with AI, I feel like it's still really early days. Moving at a rapid breakneck pace. But, you know, again, just as a preface, when we're talking about what happened since we started this podcast, the breakthrough in AI is as big as anything else we've talked about. Because remember, for decades, AI just wasn't much, right? It was very limited in its application, took forever to do, to make any breakthroughs with it. But then the combination of technology, capability, processing, GPUs, all of that, and breakthroughs in the algorithms and software really took off like a rocket in the early part of this decade.
And we're just, I think getting started with that. But all technology's two-faced. And the bigger the bang of what you're talking about, you know, an AI, let's say, the more you see the two-faced nature of it, right? I told you earlier, I was thinking about the Roman god, Janus - you see the picture very often of the two-faced god, right? And, you know, he's technically the god of beginnings and endings. It was the god of the doorway and the gate, sometimes construed to mean the good and bad face, right? The mirror and then the funhouse mirror or the black mirror.
But boy, if you think about a technology that has that aspect to it, AI is the one. It's not without parallel, right? So, you look at most major tech breakthroughs, and they had, you know, I kind of jotted down. You think about the development of nitroglycerin, which led to high explosives. And, you know how much awfulness that wrought in the world and continues to. But nevertheless, it's also a key drug in treating cardiac arrest and heart attacks, et cetera, right? And all of the organic chemistry that derived from all that work on explosives, that's the basis of modern pharmacology, right? And a zillion other industries.
Similarly, atomic energy and really understanding quantum physics, think about how that started - not so well, but then there's a whole plus side of that too. And today there are many things that benefit from that. I was thinking about cancer treatment and chemotherapy, which basically was developed as a result of a horrible accident with chemical weapons and poison. And, you know, modern cancer treatment was really born from that. So, you could just keep going on and on, right? You could say that about the internet, you could say that about everything, social media, collaboration, communications technology. But I do think AI really has this in great quantity, that ability to be good or bad or both at the same time, right?
Quantum Computing – the Next Thing After AI
Jon Arnold
Yeah, it's kind of like a qubit, right? It doesn't have one constant state. It can be in multiple places at once. That's kind of what makes me think of that. And that actually is a big one because I don't understand much about quantum computing, but I do know that it is one of the space races we're on right now with China. The ability to have that level of computational power to, again, with all the data that we are creating and trying to harness in the world, that's the stuff that matters because whoever has the best technology for that is kind of going to rule the world because they have, if you can't protect your data, it doesn't have any value.
And that's the threat that quantum poses because if the bad guys get there before the good guys, then we have no protection against our sensitive data that drives everything. That's a little James Bond-ish sounding stuff. But I think as part of the watch the space idea, Chris, I think the spirit of what we're talking about with technology change and the foundational pieces that make it all happen. Yeah, of course, AI has got to be the thing we watch.
But just coming back to the world we come from, having been through the evolution of going to VoIP and you coming with your background coming out of the Bell system, these foundational technologies that made modern communications possible, we've kind of lived through, but also studied their rises and falls. And they all follow a similar arc, right? That they have this moment of, you know, when something that starts out being disruptive, when it matures to a certain point, it becomes innovative.
That's where it creates the long-term value. And we've seen that with those technologies. And I think the patterns do hold in a lot of ways for what we think will happen with AI. So, I think there's value in having that historical perspective of having seen these kinds of movies before and trying to apply that to how we follow and interpret what the changes are that we're going to be seeing over the next while with AI.
Chris Fine
I'm glad you mentioned quantum computing, because I do think that's the other one and they're tied together to a certain extent. But I do think that if we were to go on this hiatus and then come and talk to each other in a year or do another broadcast, we would say, you know, AI is really the thing. The amount of advance that it's making on the future of work and on society as a whole and on science and technology and politics and everything else. It's rare that you see something with that much potential for harm and whatever we think the potential for good is. And we don't see a lot of efforts to understand it or regulate it. And the ones that do happen get thwarted by large forces that are out there to make sure that limits don't happen. So, who's to say where it goes, but I do think that's going to just become a bigger and bigger part of the picture, don't you?
Revisiting With Folded Hands and the Future of AI
Jon Arnold
For sure. For sure. And that takes us back to a recent episode we did about the novella With Folded Hands.
Chris Fine
I was going to mention that too. Yes, go ahead.
Jon Arnold
So, if there's one episode, folks, you really should check out if you want to go through our little archive is the one we did on With Folded Hands earlier this year. I can't remember which month it was, but I think that will be a good starting point to kind of bridge the worlds of analog to digital and pre-big tech thinking about technology, which is where that comes from. Yes, there's certainly some cold war thinking in that story. But, you know, it's interesting to read science fiction from a time when, you know, it was all human driven. It wasn't computers, there wasn't technology driving things the way they are today. But when it's a very human-centric form of perspective on the impact of technology, I think it's very different from the way people would write about it today.
Chris Fine
Well, the story has many themes, but I think the one that made it spring to mind for both of us was that it's a story about humanoids, you know, that are essentially robots that the man who invents them in the story really invented to try to stop war and suffering and death and to, as they say, serve and obey and guard mankind from harm. And yet it turned into a disaster, right?
Because the humanoids did what they were told to do, but it turned out that was the worst thing for humanity to have, especially the way they did it, because it was all about control. And, you know, the only way the humanoids could fulfill their mission was essentially to control everything. And I think that's the future that we need to try not to have. Right. Because I think that there's always an inclination to say, oh, well, you know, technology can take their care of this better than we can. And it doesn't always work out that way, right?
Jon Arnold
Right. And then we like the book and the story goes, we're bored. We have nothing to do. We have no purpose. We have nothing to strive for. No inspiration, no need for creativity, blah, blah, blah. All that stuff that makes us human becomes less important. And of course, that's a warning for, because if you want to look at it that way, you can see signs now of how AI is starting to impact our lives and our mentalities and our values, et cetera. But I'll hold it at that, Chris, because we are pretty darn close to time for today and for our podcast. But that's a hook to keep them coming back, I guess. There's just so much to talk about.
Chris Fine
Well, Jon, I just want to say it's always a pleasure doing this with you. And again, thanks to our audience and our commenters, but it's really been a special experience to have these eight seasons to chat with you and to share thoughts and to try to prognosticate and review the things we've been involved with. So, thank you very much.
Jon Arnold
You're welcome, Chris, and a big thank you as well to you because, you know, we've had and do have a really nice partnership. And it's always better than just doing the one. We work well together because we like the same stuff, and we think about these things in similar ways. So, yes, thank you, because otherwise I wouldn't be doing this. I just wouldn't be talking to myself all day.
Chris Fine
Neither would I. It's certainly not a gold mine, right?
Jon Arnold
Yeah, we're not getting rich doing this, folks.
Chris Fine
It's been fun and we'll see where it goes, right? Rethink everything and see where it goes.
Jon Arnold
Yes, yes. So, a big thank you for everybody who's out there listening or discovering us and maybe pick up a few of our earlier episodes. So, with that, yes, thank you until we sign off here. And so you don't get lost in space, you can find our episodes at www.watchthespace.tech. or wherever you subscribe, and we're on all the major platforms. So, with that, I guess as one last time for this iteration of the podcast, I am Jon Arnold.
Chris Fine
And I'm Chris Fine. Thanks to all for everything. And at some point in the future, we will be back with either Watch This Space or the next generation of Watch This Space. And thanks all, and we will see you in the future.
